“The Grayson Perry print is probably the most valuable work in the house, so we know we can sell that if things get really bad!”Charles Saumarez Smith

The Chief Executive of the Royal Academy in London Charles Saumarez Smith has had a thrilling career in the art world, not least his sensational campaign to keep Raphael’s Madonna of the Pinks at the National Gallery. He shows us around his beautiful house and art collection, whilst revealing fascinating insights about his life.

FAM: Charles, thank you so much for making time to speak with me. Could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Charles Saumarez Smith: Well, I was trained as an art historian and studied at Cambridge and then spent a year at Harvard. My first job was at the Victoria & Albert Museum running a postgraduate course on the History of Design. Everyone was interested in objects and their history and I got interested in reconstructing the history of objects, what happened to them, how they were acquired by the museum and how they changed their character after acquisition. In 1989 there was a big reorganization of the V&A and I was made head of research. Which meant that I was spending most of my time co-ordinating the research of others. I did that for four years but didn’t enjoy it particularly because it was a purely administrative role.

On the left a sculpture by Christopher Le Brun and on the right a vintage family photographs from Sherbrooke Village, Nova ScotiaTwo tigerskin chairs by designed by Arthur Livingston Savage (Romilly’s grandfather)

But you left to become Director of the National Portrait Gallery?
When I was in my late thirties they advertised the job of Director at the National Portrait Gallery. There were two very strong internal candidates that rather divided the trustees and I was the third candidate so I got the job. I had a very nice, very interesting time at the Portrait Gallery. Through my work there I got much more involved in Contemporary Art. When I had been trained as an academic art historian it was all about the past and not about contemporary art.

Did you organize commissions there?
Yes, there was quite a bit of commissioning and there was also the BP Portrait Award and I was required to be chairman of the judges and to hang the exhibition. And to be honest I really had no idea whatsoever, but I didn’t make that clear (laughs)! But more importantly I was involved in commissioning portraits—one of the gallery’s key roles. I often had to negotiate which artist the sitter wanted to be painted by. I was always of the opinion that you got a better portrait if there was some rapport between the artist and the sitter.

On the left a photowork from Loss of Face by John Goto and on the right a concrete sculpture by Ferdinand Saumarez Smith

Who were the more high-profile people whose portrait you commissioned at the time?
The most complicated one was that of A S Byatt, who said that she would like to be painted by Patrick Heron. This was because he had done portraits of TS Eliot and Herbert Read. We both ignored the fact that he had become a pure abstract painter. So I wrote to him out of the blue and asked him if he would consider it and he came to lunch and met A S Byatt and I think he was flattered. She went to stay with him down in Cornwall but he didn’t do a portrait. I kept on asking “What’s happening?” and she said “I’m only going down again if you come and make him paint a portrait.” So I went down and we spent a week there and I would drive her to the studio and bring them a sandwich lunch.

You used gentle coercion?
I did! On the final Thursday afternoon he painted a big, pretty abstract, but rather wonderful portrait. It transpired after he died that he had spent the last two years painting not exactly portraits but pictures of her from memory, trying to figure out how to connect abstraction to portraiture.

A painting of Otto Saumarez Smith by Humphrey Ocean RA

On the left a 17th century carved wooden goblet, a plaster cast of Oliver Cromwell and a Roman artefact and on the right Cushion of Sassoferrato, The Virgin in Prayer (National Gallery) on tapestry chair

Then you moved on to the prestigious National Gallery in London?
Yes, I became the Director of the National Gallery in 2002 and of course the collection of the National Gallery ends in 1900 so by definition you’re not dealing with contemporary art. Actually you’re dealing with owners and dealers so each acquisition is unspeakably complicated. But if you’re successful it is highly interesting, and I enjoyed acquiring the Madonna of the Pinks, by Raphael. Although it was a very long process of negotiation.

View of the upstairs jewellery workshop and the pigeon bedroom, with print by Charlotte Verity

You have worked in many venerable art institutions! Because then you moved on to the Royal Academy of Art.
Yes, after that I moved to the Royal Academy in 2007 and I thought that it was a way of being involved with contemporary art practice.

Do you remember any early influences, perhaps in childhood that made you get interested in art?
My older brother thought correctly that my parents didn’t have much interest in the Visual Arts and he took it upon himself to act as a surrogate father. I took a scholarship to Marlborough and I had to write a long essay, it seems odd now, as I was only 13. My brother got me to do it on monumental brasses. So I spent two years going around medieval churches all around Britain doing brass rubbing.

On the left, how the house used to look pre-restoration and on the right view of the house today

On the left Liane Lang, Laocoön, 2006/7 and on the right Julian Stair, Two Cups on a Ground, 2014 and candlestick by Marianna Kennedy

Can you remember the very first piece of art you ever owned? 
That’s difficult. But when I was at the V&A the Crafts Council had a shop there and I used to buy Christmas presents and one of the things I am incredibly pleased to have bought is a Phil Eglin.

Would you consider yourself a collector?
Well my wife and I never thought of ourselves as “collectors”, but over the years we’ve kind of bought things fairly consistently. We have bought quite a lot of pieces by South African artist Hylton Nel. Of course ceramics are still not that valuable but I am very pleased we bought them. Also a wonderful painter, a wonderful person, Philip Core. He was quite a big figure in the Seventies, very colorful. He was on the radio a lot. He was knowledgeable but if he didn’t know something he would make it up.

View through door to dining room with Rody Graumans, 85 Lamps Lighting Fixture, 1992

So of the work, which you have up in the house, could you tell me about one or two of those?
The only portraits we have up are of my sons. The rest are probably in the attic. About ten years ago, Humphrey Ocean, did a portrait of our oldest son Otto. He exhibited the portrait in the RA Summer Exhibition and, not surprisingly, nobody but me wanted to buy it.

In the Dining Room we have three pictures by a photographic artist called John Goto, who was doing a show concerning Suffolk churches damaged by Dowsing on Cromwell’s orders. On the other side we have a small sculpture by Christopher Le Brun. I’ve known his work for a long time but was never able to afford it. When I went to the Royal Academy he had an exhibition at the New Art Centre and at the time I wanted to buy a painting but they were too large or too expensive and so he suggested I buy the sculpture, which I duly did.

On the left Charles in front of seventeenth-century corner cupboard and ceramics by Nicola Tassie and on the right a 1930s desk by Arthur Livingstone Savage with sculptures by Conrad Shawcross RA and Ferdinand Saumarez Smith and glass work by Jochen Holz

Do you own any works by female artists?
We have quite a few works by Tessa Träger. Over the mantle piece is a work by Charlotte Verity. In fact we own a lot of works by her. I have a large photograph by Liane Lang in the bedroom.

What other works stand out?
We have a Grayson Perry work upstairs. We were at the top table when he won the Turner Prize and he made a pot with all the names of the people on his table that night. I went to his exhibition and I asked to buy it, and the response was rather dismissive—everything was already sold before the exhibition had opened! There was also a print called Map of an Englishman which I admired. Actually I love his work, the prints have a rich sense of layering and are somehow historical and not historical. That was probably my most valuable work in the house, so we know we can sell that if things get really bad!

Mariana Cook, Savine’s Dress and photograms by Jane Dixon

On the left Christopher Le Brun PRA, Wing and on the right a view of Humphrey Ocean RA, Ferdinand Saumarez Smith

The building we are in is on the Mile End Road. Did you grow up in London?
No I was born outside Salisbury and we lived in Farnham, then outside Oxford. One of the reasons I always liked London is because my mother thought London was the source of all evil. She thought the countryside was healthy and cities were insalubrious. She had a view that walking in fresh air was essential to one’s health.

How long have you been with your wife?
We met when we were 19. And I have to say she had huge impact on my taste. Her father’s father was a furniture designer and these two 1930s chairs were designed by him for a private client who never picked them up.

On the left a crumpled balloon sculpture and on the right, Romilly in front of a table display of her jewellery

You have two children. Are they interested in the arts?
Yes we have two sons, both of whom are interested in the arts though they claim we did nothing to encourage them. Which is not strictly true. Our oldest son is an architectural historian working on the 1960s. Our younger son works for Factum Arte, a company that fabricates work for contemporary artists. He now mainly goes round digitally recording monuments which may be at risk of destruction.

Liane Lang, The Faun in front a ceramic bowl by Edmund de Waal, Town Planner by Claire Partington, and a table sculpture by Mariko Mori

On the left a terracotta portrait head and on the right a Wendy Savage, The Last Supper, Alison Wilding RA, Rising, and green bowl by Hylton Nel

Please tell me about this beautiful house you’re in now?
It’s on the site of a much larger early 18th century house and the site was taken over by an artisan builder who built a row of houses on the road out to Essex. In the 1960s it was used to make boxes but when we knew it in the Eighties it was an exhaust pipe garage and you could drive through the middle of it. The front had shops so it wasn’t at all visible as a pair of fine 18th century houses. We bought the house when it was semi-restored and Romilly, my wife, did a vast amount of work to finish the restoration. Spitalfields had actually bought both properties for £1 because Tower Hamlets didn’t know what to do with them. 

On the left shells made of paper and drawing by Mercedes Baliarda and on the right a Antique bust

I notice you didn’t restore all the woodwork in the house?
It’s an aesthetic we’re interested in, like in the work of John Goto. My wife was keen to keep what was left of the original house. She discovered the workers had replaced two old panels in the sitting room, which upset her greatly.

Bedroom with Grayson Perry RA, Map of an Englishman, 2004

On the left two views of the pigeon bedroom, including Charlotte Verity and Romilly Saumarez Smith

Finally could you tell us a little bit about your blog?
I started blogging about three years ago. My very efficient PA suggested that it would be good if the staff at the RA knew more about me (little did she know what she was unleashing). It makes me look at the world more carefully, as well as taking photographs on my mobile phone. Quite soon, I realised that it might be possible to make a book out of the entries about the area round where we live in East London. They will now be published by Thames and Hudson in late April and I love what Harry Pearce, the brilliant head of graphic design at Pentagram has done with it.

I try and do a post a day charlessaumarezsmith.com/blog. It’s given me the utmost pleasure, as do the comments left by friends and other readers on it as well.

on the left two prints by Christopher Le Brun RA and metalwork by Junko Mori and on the right Charles looking out of the dining room window

Interview by Kâthe Kroma